Steve you are badly misinformed. I would not want your misinformation to remain unchallenged in the minds of members.
I stood my school down in early 2014 whilst my defamation action in the High Court naming the BHPA and its chairman was in contention. Now that action is decided in my favour with an unqualified offer of amends at who knows what unnecessary cost to members, there only remains my complaint against the Chairman's conduct to be concluded. At that point I expect to stand to again.
In the intervening time I have remained an active member (as you must know since I am a current tvhgc member) and I continue to uphold the regulations values and ethos if the BHPA.
If you want clarify before posting further in the subject do have a chat with your mate Dave.
IIRC site risk assessment (required of clubs) state best wind direction and between wind directions in degrees. Incident reports have a section relating to wind direction on the day and site wind direction recommended limits. I suspect the black triangles indicating wind sectors on our site guide are loosely based on our stated limits in our risk assessments.
Our sites officer will have those details.
Nik will have needed that information for his IR. It may be the case that, had Nik that information at his shall I launch? moment it may have just tipped the balance in favour if a No.
Alerting Carl to the concept seems prudent to me.
Instead of taking a pop at me, guys, go back to basics and work it back up from there.
In other words read Carl's contemplative post again and ponder a while.
--Hi Tim,
Very well made points. There will never be a sign at cloudbase.
The one thing I would disagree with is that the AAIB will always be involved with a very serious or fatal accident.
The insurers would get involved in the event of a claim against the club, like the one made against Dunstable. Then the contents of the site guide could be in court.
This is why I think that whilst site guides should be as benevolent and helpful as possible, there always needs to be something about making one's own assessments on the day.
Surprised Francis is quoting BHPA at us, thought he (or his school) had left the association.
On 14/08/2015 12:33, Tim Pentreath wrote:
--On 14 August 2015 at 11:27, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:
Interesting viewpoint Bob.
No, a common sense viewpoint.Yet a defined limit is stated in the site guide. I assumed it had some basis in safe use of a site.
In the sites guide for Liddington it says NW and SW. It doesn't specify how many degrees either side is acceptable. On the map it shows some tolerance either side in a graphical format but with no actual numerical values. Perhaps you would like to specify them? No, I didn't think so. Who can possibly say that 300 deg is safe, but 299 deg isn't? The whole point is that it's a guide, not a rulebook.
It is also a requirement under BHPA site risk assessment.
Is it? I tried a quick search of the BHPA website but couldn't see anything, but I could have missed it...Would it not contribute to the evidence base for the AAIB the insurers and the Coroner?
Pretty sure the AAIB doesn't get involved with us...
Tim
On Aug 14, 2015 11:00 AM, "Bob Johnston" <bobj1966@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:--
--Surely site wind direction depends on too many factors to simply state a defined limit, 30 degrees off the hill might be ok on a smooth evening but add in strong wind, thermals or both and maybe 15 off is too much, the guide can only ever be a guide and can't replace on the spot judgement, how ever we are all human so all make mistakes, we can't see the air so there is always going to be a margin of error, it's trying to squeeze that margin that sometimes results in problems.We all want to learn how to minimise risks but it is a adventure sport, never fool yourself that it isn't.
Sent from my iPhoneGreat post Carl. You explain our dilemma very well. We want to fly, have expended huge effort to be there but is it safe?
And that amounts to a best guess at the probability. A gamble on the odds.Every site in the guide has a wind direction range given. This range is evolved from (sometimes bitter) experience. Pilots often carry wind speed gauges and have a "personal limit" they apply but merely guess at the wind angle.
Nik acknowledges the wind angle was, perhaps, towards the stated limit for Liddington. It might be helpful for the sites officer to know whether Liddington limits now need review or, conversely, for pilots to have it confirmed that exceeding the stated limit takes them into pioneering territory.
Risks increase exponentially beyond the known limits and are raised by the power of the number of limits exceeded. So risk approaches certainty very soon after passing those limits.
Carl, please continue to watch them fly when your own assessment keeps you on the ground. You don't have a "comfort zone" that needs "expanding" you have a healthy survival instinct and a sound understanding of probability :-)
On Aug 14, 2015 9:23 AM, "Carl Foster" <pedwarpimp@gmail.com> wrote:--
Thanks for the write up Nik. I'm glad to hear it wasn't any worst and you are recovering well and quickly by the sounds.
It's always hard when here hear about an incident especially when it's some one you've met and someone you know is very current and capable and safety concious as you come across from the role you play in TVHGC.
I think it is helpful to the person who has had the incident to talk about it and very helpful for others to learn from.
A question I ask myself and others a lot is how do you know/find/increase your comfort zones safely?. I have sat on the hill many times when others have flown and had great flights, while I'm not liking the conditions for one reason or another and then beat myself up on way home for not trying but this is a simple reminder that this is not always a bad thing.
A quote I heard while on a mountain biking course was "never say one more go". I've tried building that in to my subconcious, although it may not always fit with paragliding I do find it very relevant and useful for my flying as many times I've caught myself on days which I'm trying to get away from the hill in less than ideal Conditions or particularly in the tow environment. So I've tried to acknowledge a little earlier I'm getting tired or to the end of my patience, energy mindset or what ever it maybe and tell myself I'll have a few more goes, but might only have the one extra attempt, it helps me keep an open mind and not focused on taking any more risks than any other flight thinking it's my last attempt. (All or nothing so to speak)
Anyway I didn't plan on typing so much but as always trying to place some relevance on these incidents and how I can learn from them. If my thoughts opinions help others then even better.
Look forward to seeing more of your flying posts and videos of you flying in the near future.
Carl.
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