Tim said:
I wonder what percentage of top xc pilots (let's say those who've flown a 100km flight) use (rather than just carry) a paper airmap during their flights?
Errr - zero?
And how many have a chinagraph pencil on board? - get real lads.
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 8:11 AM -0700, "Steve Purdie" <info@airworks.co.uk> wrote:
That's fine and is what I meant. Apologies if I misunderstood...
-------- Original message --------
From: Tim Pentreath <tim.pentreath@gmail.com>
Date: 10/06/2015 14:45 (GMT+00:00)
To: tvhgc_members@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TVHGC Members] XC Soar paragliding airspace file - advice/help?What Gus said :-)Except it's "Keevil", not "Feeble"! (auto-correct fail?)Tim Slovenly P--On 10 June 2015 at 14:41, gus charnell <gussay@hotmail.com> wrote:here is my tuppence worth…Steve, I don't think Tim was saying he "doesn't relate what he can see on the ground to what is on his map"…I didn't know which way I was going on Sunday, but I knew where feeble was, I knew where salisbury plain was… I didn't know any of the towns in between but recognised roads and towns on the map as they came into view then referenced them against the airspace.That doesn't require me to have prior knowledge of the whole route… just basic orienteering skills.See where you want to go, relate it to a distant ground object/feature… point that way… simples.And I never follow the arrow on the gps unless it's in a comp AND there is no airspace to be negotiated.Gus..On 10 Jun 2015, at 14:29, Steve Purdie <info@airworks.co.uk> wrote:That is slovenly and asking for trouble. By all means use the GPS to locate yourself, but then you must reference that to the ground below or any GPS shenanigans will leave you lost.I remember Chris Dawes blindly following the GPS arrow at 90 degrees to the rest of the field and off into controlled airspace. It would have been less unbelievable if we were not meant to be heading past his home...
-------- Original message --------
From: Tim Pentreath <tim.pentreath@gmail.com>
Date: 10/06/2015 13:15 (GMT+00:00)
To: tvhgc_members@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TVHGC Members] XC Soar paragliding airspace file - advice/help?On 10 June 2015 at 12:59, Nik Valiris <nik.valiris@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:There is great advice being offered here from very experienced pilots and some wise words mainly due to the serious nature of this.However if you really don't know where you are then it time to find a safe place to land.
Every time you go out with the intent on flying XC, plan your flight and eventualities using that CAA air chart you have, study the ground features if you're not familiar with the area as they are marked on the map. Make a note of the boundaries to airspace down wind and what features might you look out for making it a boundary such as a road/town/railway/tower. etc. If you have an instrument then back that up with a preplanned route to help. Yes for sure some pilots are using instruments with moving maps but only as a guide as they are still flying using ground and visual features.I'm going to set the cat amongst the pigeons here by disagreeing with the above. I don't think there are many experienced 100km+ XC pilots who work out the ground features relating to airspace when they're flying over unfamiliar territory. I know I certainly don't as there'd be far too much to remember on a long flight. Of course, once you've flown a route a few times, you recognise features, and when flying past an ATZ I always look and see where the actual airfield is so that I have a visual on it, but I rely 100% on FlySkyHy for actually keeping clear of airspace. To suggest you rely on ground features for nav is to vastly increase the workload whilst you're flying.For sure I will study the airspace before I go to a new area, but only to the extent of looking at it on xcplanner or FlySkyHy.HTHTimNik.On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:58 PM, David Molden <davidmoldenchen@gmail.com> wrote:Francis, what do you mean by basic map reading? How could I have avoided airspace without some instrument showing my relative position?
On 10 Jun 2015, at 12:31, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:With the greatest of respect David, might we not rather learn that basic map reading is the pre-requisite navigational essential and reliance on any instrumentation must come as a second not first line of defence?I say this with only the best of intentions.On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:27 PM, David Molden <davidmoldenchen@gmail.com> wrote:This is all about my instrumentation. I checked the map, and always carry one, so I was aware of the airspace. My error was that having loaded the airspace file on my Flymaster, and set it to trigger if approaching airspace that it would show me a screen I could actually use. It seems Flymaster is pretty crap at airspace. Part of the problem I expect was me messing with the Flymaster in flight trying to get up something that showed where I was in relation to airspace … and in the process ended up in it.I have learned that I need a better gadget for this. Don't use Flymaster for Airspace.
On 10 Jun 2015, at 12:21, Tim Pentreath <tim.pentreath@gmail.com> wrote:Hi David, one thing I'd say is even had you had managed to squeeze past Thruxton (I assume to the east), you'd then have had to deal with Middle Wallop, which is slightly further to the east too... So my message to you is to start avoiding airspace much earlier - ie. be aware of the bigger picture. Once you get pinned up against airspace you're generally doomed, unless you get lucky.When I'm using FlySkyHy, I have it zoomed out a lot, and only zoom in when I get close:<image.png>NB. I wasn't actually avoiding South Cerney which was actually open on Sunday.HTH
TimOn 10 June 2015 at 11:17, David Molden <davidmoldenchen@gmail.com> wrote:Yep, my flight log on g/earth shows I just clipped the edge of Thruxton ATZ. I was the only pilot in the sky at the time, so I had no experienced gaggle to lead the way like there was on Sunday. Will practice making 3D visualisations of airspace maps.On 10 Jun 2015, at 10:51, Chris Williams <chr15williams@btinternet.com> wrote:For a quick overview of the airspace you mention I followed Dave Cox's advice earlier in this thread and downloaded skydemonlight. It's free and shows a very clear version of the basic airspace information you need.<image001.jpg>From: tvhgc_members@googlegroups.com [mailto:tvhgc_members@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nik Valiris
Sent: 09 June 2015 17:02
To: tvhgc_members@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TVHGC Members] XC Soar paragliding airspace file - advice/help?I don't think airspace was an issue as it FL65+ where you flew.
You might want to check your track though as you were close to or inside Thurxton ATZ and just short 1.8km from Middle Wallop ATZ.On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 4:28 PM, David Molden <davidmoldenchen@gmail.com> wrote:Thanks for the tips Martin. I actually thought I kept outside the airspace as the 'Dist to CTR' never reached zero - I used this to try and fly clear, but the poor screen could well be down to settings. Maybe I thermalled up into airspace rather than flying into it?I'll be flying mainly outside the UK for much of the summer now with little or no airspace to worry about so I'll update my instruments when I get back. Possibly a Kobo although interested to see the Vertica 3 when it's available. I think a separate airspace gadget is definitely the way to go.On 9 Jun 2015, at 16:02, Martin Butcher <m1rt2n@hotmail.com> wrote:David Flymasters do display the airspace map (But it isn't brilliant). If it beeped at you, you were heading towards it. You were probably zoomed in so much that the boarder was outside the screen area. Try pressing the up/down arrows to zoom in/out. Or possible that the warning distance was too great.However as Mike has said it is much easier to use a Kobo as it is so much clearer.I have a Live and a Kobo, both give me warnings. I set the Kobo warning distance further away to give advance warning and the flymaster to warn me if I am about to enter.Martin
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