Re: [TVHGC Members] BCC at Combe on Sunday

I don't really care cos it works in practice. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Apr 2016, at 13:45, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

All very well in practice Michael, but does it really work in theory?

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Michael Coupe <mcoupe71@gmail.com> wrote:

I've flown in comps all over the world, in each one there may be perhaps 150 pilots all circling right, representing thousands and thousands of flying hours. I don't think I've ever seen a spin caused by a pilot tightening a right turn to avoid a head on collision. This is just not a real world problem, 

Mike

On 18 Apr 2016, at 11:06, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

Arthur you raise a very good point, why, if all are circling in the same direction there should be any head on conflict.

Your assessment relies on the circles being the same diameter and concentric and that the airspeeds of the gliders are identical. None of these parameters is ever likely to be true and even more seldom all three at the same time.

draw a pair of eccentric circles (even slightly eccentric) and trace the relative paths of two gliders turning right. There will be two points of conflict unless the gliders maintain identical airspeeds.

Put another glider into your theorectial thermal and you have 6 points of conflict. 4 gliders 12 points.

I am suggesting that the reason for the right turn edict is to accomodate the expected poor airmanship of pilots leaving the ridge traffic too early and returning too late from their (non) thermal adventure and that maintaining short beats in any lift bubbles that come through until it is absolutely clear that you will 360 well above the ridge and its traffic, if adopted by all who would thermal would render the right turn argument redundand and the left turn argument I have described might seem a more logical choice.

Dont forget, when you are the first into a thermal you choose the "turn rule". If you ensure that the choice is purely arbitrary by staying in the beats until it makes no difference then you will probably a) actually be in a thermal that will take you off the hill b) enable you to choose a left hand turn if you feel it will benefit you and the gaggle trail that will follow you and c) keep you out of the mele of pilots all chasing each other into the bubbles of lift that amount to nothing as they weaqve in and out of ridge traffic shout obsceneties at anyone who is following ridge protocol.

All just my opinion of course. Great to know you are applying critical thought and not merely absorbing the received "wisdom"

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Arthur Gibbs <arthurgibbs@gmail.com> wrote:

Feel like im going against the crowd here but I agree with you in principle Francis. But one might ask why people are thermalling close enough to others that a head on head is still possible while all turning in the same rotation.

From last year I remember all too well it was more common for one pilot to thermal in the other direction from the other 40 pilots(and shout at them all). 

In case any were wondering no it was not Francis.

Glad you all had a good day :)

On 17 April 2016 at 23:12, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

thinking about stuff and chatting about ideas is good too.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:08 PM, Nik Valiris <nik.valiris@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

that's the main thing

On 17 April 2016 at 23:06, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

super thanks

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:05 PM, Nik Valiris <nik.valiris@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

Did you have a nice day flying Francis?

On 17 April 2016 at 23:03, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

lore as opposed to law. the lore that has been advanced as (IMO poor) reasoning for adopting a right turn rule.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Tim Pentreath <tim.pentreath@gmail.com> wrote:

Air "lore"??

On Sunday, 17 April 2016, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

"When the wind is off to the right you might concede a left turn" is what I understood you to say, Simon. 

I said I might concede a right turn when the wind is off to the left for reasons of similar argument to yours.

Where we differ is the height at which you appear to be considering the first 360. You seem to be saying you want to make the first turn away from the hill into wind. I am saying if the hill is still an issue (by that I mean a hill and its ridge traffic restrict your 360) a pilot is unwise (should have IMO been taught not to) be considering a 360 yet. Need to get higher and 360 well above the hill and its traffic. I know that never happens and we see people trying to 360 in the traffic but that is really my point.

I see your arguments as further supporting the favouring of "thermalling" over ridge traffic and adapting air lore to suit that purpose.

I said, and no-one has denied it, that maintaining a right hand bank and encountering a head on is a dangerous situation to require a pilot to be put into as airlaw requires both pilots to brake right to avoid and both are put at risk of spin.

I dont see the "convenience" of the thermallers as a good enough reason to depart from that fairly self evident fact.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Simon H <sheadford1@gmail.com> wrote:

Well I hope you all had a great day today. I'm away briefly in Montenegro otherwise would have joined in the fun for sure.

Off to the 'right' I said. Anyway, accepting that the normal ridge soaring pattern is closer to the hill on the upwind beat and further out on the downwind, and assuming that you're more likely to successfully enter (ie want to turn in) a thermal flying into wind than downwind, at least that's my experience, then the first turn should  be made away from the hill hence to the left. And vice versa for off to the right. Bang on, a meet head could call it either way.

After a couple of turns the proximity of the hill ceases to be relevant of course but no maneuver should be executed if it puts you and another pilot into conflict. That is stupidity, and obvious. Drivers, pilots, boat skippers etc are all bound by the same tenet.

S

On 16 Apr 2016 21:26, "'Donovan' via TVHGC members list" <tvhgc_members@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I concur, how about Turn it in🙄😇

Regards

Daniel J Donovan

On 16 Apr 2016, at 19:36, Tim Pentreath <tim.pentreath@gmail.com> wrote:

Seventeen emails discussing turn direction... Hilarious 😄

On Saturday, 16 April 2016, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

Only relevant in that it is based on the same principle of braking right when turning left to avoid conflict is preferable to avoid braking further right and spinning. I thought that was clear from the context but I maybe should have made that more explicit. Only relevant in that, like circuits, the default turn is left unless other considerations outweigh that imperative.

Southern Club? Is that the one that has the most mid-air collisions?

Thermalling at ridge height is not thermalling at all, in my opinion it is "getting in the way".

It amounts to the age old "I am thermalling so I need you to adopt your airlaw to suit my need" mindset of the "entitled".

all just my opinion of course.

The one argument I was expecting to be raised and one that may have some traction, is when the wind is off to the left (Simon has alluded to it and may elaborate?) In that case the downwind run would bring the pilot "dangerously close to the ridge" and so would be better to be doing the downwind futher out. This is variation on the theme put forward by Richard.

Coombe is just such a hill where the best conditions are "off to the left a bit"? So it is understandable that the right turn edict would be made here.

EXCEPT that those arguments (both Richard's and Simon's) attempt to make 360 turns that bring a pilot close to the ridge less dangerous.

WTF are those pilots doing 360s that low for? Oh, yes, sorry they are "thermalling".

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Richard Chambers <rchambersuk@gmail.com> wrote:

Thermalling is nothing like airfield circuits so I don't know how that is relevant? Thermalling right allows you to follow airlaw on the ridge without leaving the thermal. This is why the Southern club (the busiest in the country) has a right turn rule on their sites, it reduces conflict between thermalling and ridge soaring.

I'm happy to turn either way in a thermal, every thermal seems to have its own preferred spin so you have to be flexible, but I still maintain that unless the wind is significantly off the hill, right turn is safer.

Richard

On Sat, 16 Apr 2016, 11:19 Nik Valiris, <nik.valiris@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

Such as storm over right and left who'd of thought it ;-)

Anyhow just so the message doesn't get lost:

The BCC Round on Combe Gibbet is now 'confirmed' tomorrow and the thermalling TURN direction at the hill will be RIGHT (ie. clockwise).  ALL pilots should adhere to this where possible whilst abiding by air law and collision avoidance rules.  Anyone not doing this may expect a few shouts from pilots as last year.

There will be 6 teams of a minimum of 6 pilots each competing of varying ability from CP upwards, don't expect all pilots to have left the hill early as in other competitions.  So 36 - 50 pilots approximately.

TVHGC Team:  Anyone CP or above who would like to attend the TVHGC Team please contact our captain Mike Manners comps@tvhgc.co.uk
Add your name and details to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gd4_0MWQzAEbD-Q_8UpwPCvu5J6DxcJ3JsBJR33suQI/edit#gid=0 check out the informational page https://www.facebook.com/groups/789294757819050/?fref=ts

On 16 April 2016 at 11:05, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

If I am left I am right.

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Mike Coupe <mcoupe71@gmail.com> wrote:

In this instance you're correct (the being amazed bit) :-)

Sent from my iPhone

On 16 Apr 2016, at 10:50, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

But I will be amazed if it is me.

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 10:50 AM, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

Mike you need to say "Which Rich"

 :-)

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Mike Coupe <mcoupe71@gmail.com> wrote:

Agree totally Rich. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 16 Apr 2016, at 10:31, Richard Chambers <rchambersuk@gmail.com> wrote:

If you thermal left and drift back onto the ridge you have to break right out of the thermal to avoid traffic on the ridge. If you are turning right in the thermal you can usually continue to turn right in the thermal, maybe tighten or widen the turn to avoid conflict.

If the wind is off the hill it is probably more important to set turn direction so that you are flying upwind as you turn towards the ridge.

You turn left to make it easier to break right makes no sense.

Richard

On Sat, 16 Apr 2016, 08:43 francis rich, <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

Thanks Dave. It has to be somebody. 

..................................... And he will if you are repentant.

X F

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 8:36 AM, dave cox <dilligaf888@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

Francis

Why is is always you? They have called right turns, just accept it like everybody else has. There is no argument.

Lord, give me strength............

Sent from my iPad

On 16 Apr 2016, at 07:03, Nick smith <glidingnick@hotmail.com> wrote:

Rich,

Much as I hate to get dragged into your argument.... I'm going to anyway. The choice of left or right turns with cooperating gliders is largely arbitrary, however if you are going to make an argument wrt air law then right turns would be the most sensible option. A non-cooperating aircraft coming upon a turning glider would naturally turn right and, since the turning glider is already going right then collision is less likely.

But, as I said, it's arbitrary as we're almost static and largely unmanoeuvrable compared to most aircraft.

Rgds, Nick S

Sent from my iPhone

On 16 Apr 2016, at 03:25, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

It always is if you put it to vote. But in a confliction if turning right already to have to brake emergency right to deconflict = spin. An informed electorate gets the government it deserves? Good job its raining ;-)

On Friday, April 15, 2016, Nik Valiris <nik.valiris@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

Unfortunately its RIGHT by consensus ;-)

On 15 April 2016 at 17:32, francis rich <francis@jfdiuk.com> wrote:

Turn direction should always be left. makes no sense to choose otherwise.

Boom.

On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Jon Appleton <jon.apple@gmail.com> wrote:

A BCC round has been called for this Sunday at Combe.  The BCC is a UK based competition for paragliding pilots of all shapes and sizes, focusing on CP pilots who are taking their first XC's.

 

The hill will of course remain open to TVHGC members on the day, but it is worth noting:

 

The site will be busy – expect upwards of 60 or more additional pilots on the hill.  So if you are planning to fly, do your usual safety checks: checking it is safe to launch and fly.

 

The comp will pick a turn direction.  Find out what this is, and stick to the specified direction even if you are not flying in the comp.

 

Consider flying from another site.  Combe remains open, but why not try Liddington as a alternative site that should be much quieter.

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Nik Valiris

Mob: 07549 527301

Email: nik.valiris@hotmail.co.uk | nik.valiris@gmail.com

Web: www.facebook.com/valiris

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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Please note that TVHGC may withdraw any posted messages deemed
unsuitable but does not generally endorse any posted content.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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Please note that TVHGC may withdraw any posted messages deemed
unsuitable but does not generally endorse any posted content.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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Nik Valiris

Mob: 07549 527301

Email: nik.valiris@hotmail.co.uk | nik.valiris@gmail.com

Web: www.facebook.com/valiris

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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Please note that TVHGC may withdraw any posted messages deemed
unsuitable but does not generally endorse any posted content.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.co.uk/group/TVHGC_Members?hl=en-GB
Please note that TVHGC may withdraw any posted messages deemed
unsuitable but does not generally endorse any posted content.
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Arthur Gibbs

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Please note that TVHGC may withdraw any posted messages deemed
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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Please note that TVHGC may withdraw any posted messages deemed
unsuitable but does not generally endorse any posted content.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.co.uk/group/TVHGC_Members?hl=en-GB
Please note that TVHGC may withdraw any posted messages deemed
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.co.uk/group/TVHGC_Members?hl=en-GB
Please note that TVHGC may withdraw any posted messages deemed
unsuitable but does not generally endorse any posted content.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVHGC members list" group.
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